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Web of Trust ; Trusted?


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#21 exile360

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:49 AM

QUOTE post #2:
Web of Trust is a community based rating system, that means, like anything that is community based, that all ratings are based on the opinions of the users within the community.

Not true, WOT employs trusted sources - automated ratings: hpHosts, MDL, SURBL, more:
https://www.mywot.co...Trusted_Sources

Fine, so SOME of the ratings are not community based or based on the opinions of users, but that does NOT invalidate my point in any way, since some still are.

To be clear, I am not saying that WOT is a bad thing (in fact, up until this topic was created, I never really heard anything bad about it at all), I was simply making the point that a community based rating system is only as valid as the opinions and research done by said community and that is still true.
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#22 BornSlippy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:53 PM

Quote post:#18:
I already gave one example (almost at random). Trojan Killer (as opposed to Trojan Remover) is not 'Rogue Software' as tagged by g7w and never has been.

Yes, in post #8 you stated;
"I don't use Trojan Killer and have no particular view regarding its performance ..."

Is this topic you created about WOT Web of Trust or about me?
You seem to be pretty critical about things you're not familiar with or software you have not installed / evaluated.

I don't always choose my words carefully but on this occasion I have. I don't use Trojan Killer, that dosen't mean I haven't tested it.....properly. I have no particular view of its performance, I wouldn't recommend it over alternatives neither would I warn against using it. As for understanding what defines a Rogue I think I can say that , with the exception of some senior members here at Malwarebytes, there's no one in this industry who has caught, tested and submitted as many new rogues as I have. I think I know the difference.

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#23 MikeW

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:33 AM

I always thought WOT was short for 'waste of time' :P come to think of it I still do :D
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#24 GT500

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:51 PM

I assume that this is the URL to the software in question? http://trojan-killer.net/
I intend on giving this software a try, and if it is no longer worthy of the rating on WOT then you, me, and everyone else here with a WOT account can rate it according to our own experiences.


?

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, and against the worldly governors, the princes of the darkness of this world...


#25 MysteryFCM

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:44 PM

Please don't use this thread as a marketing/backlink opportunity - that's not what it is here for.

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#26 Dukeo

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:46 PM

I am the guy behind Dukeo (one of the 2 blogs cited in the starting post of this thread).

Funny enough, I had written a 2000+ words reply to this topic but it got deleted by the moderator MysteryFCM who happens to be the guy who introduced the topic to G7W... I can only guess that he has connections to MyWot users and it doesn't serve their purpose to let people expose the opposite point of view.

#27 MysteryFCM

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:11 PM

Trying to skewer things isn't going to help you.

The post was removed due to the link at the end, as it had no other purpose than to serve as a backlink. You are free to re-post, or the post can be restored without the link at the end, the choice is yours.

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#28 BornSlippy

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:21 AM

Trying to skewer things isn't going to help you.

The post was removed due to the link at the end

Why not just remove the link, isn't that normal practice?

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#29 Dukeo

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:46 AM

Trying to skewer things isn't going to help you.


Skewer things? Seeing that you are an active member of MyWot (profile: http://www.mywot.com/en/user/24160) with various awards such as Scam Buster 2008, Scam Buster 2009 and Top Member Award 2009, I doubt you are a "neutral observator" of this topic so it could have been wise to act with caution and not just delete a long reply that doesn't go "the MyWot way". This just tends to confirm how things are done around Web Of Trust: shut down the opposite point of view with the means you have (and being a moderator gives you all the necessary power on this forum to make me shut up).

#30 MysteryFCM

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:09 AM

You're obsessed with the conspiracy theories it seems.

I told you, you are free to re-post without the last link if you wish. As for myself, yes I'm staff here, and yes I'm a moderator on MyWot - but no, I'm not biased (I've voiced my opinions good and bad many times).

Please ensure from now on, the conspiracy theories are left out of this, and you stay on topic, or the thread will simply be locked.

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#31 Dukeo

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:45 AM

How to discard someone's opinion 101 (sponsored by MyWot power-users):

1/ say that he promotes MLM/affiliate/scam/spam (thanks to G7W),
2/ delete his reply when he defends another point of view (thanks to MysteryFCM),
3/ say that he sees conspiracy theory everywhere and if he replies back, you get the topic locked (thanks to MysteryFCM),
4/ Job done!

So someone cay say that I am a scammer and that's fine, but when I try to defend myself my answer gets deleted and I get a warning?... lol

#32 Dukeo

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:45 AM

Thanks to BornSlippy for starting this thread. It's time MyWot get exposed for what it is: a troll-filled website.

To make things clear, I'm the guy behind Dukeo. I originally didn't plan to answer to this thread because the post I made on my blog is quite explicit by itself. However, by reading the reply that g7w is giving to this post, I have no choice but adding my own views.

First of all, I'd like to say that I did my homework before exposing MyWot in my blog post (http://dukeo.com/myw...b-totalitarism/) and I do not (contrary to web of trust users) post libel just for the sake of trashing a business.

Let's take things in order (prepare some coffee, it's going to be a long read).

G7W says: "In the OP the domain dukeo.com and affhelper.com are referenced. Both promote MLM/ Affiliate / stay at home, "get rich quick" schemes."

1/ If you check Dukeo's scorecard on MyWot (http://www.mywot.com...ecard/dukeo.com), you'll see that the highest comment (posted by another power user of Web Of Trust) says: "They know how WOT works , but because they have been rated poorly , they attack WOT in the only way they know how , through misleading statements or downright lies Not a trusted site ="

-> This first comment is highly misleading! If you check my blog post, you'll see that I posted on my blog BEFORE Dukeo was ranked on MyWot. This proves that my site was voted down just because I was sharing my views about MyWot. And since it was going against their single-track mind, my website got trashed.

2/ The fact that G7W puts "MLM", "Affiliate", "stay at home" and "get rich quick" all in the same bag shows once again that these guys judge a lot of websites without first-hand experience or without having a clue about what they are talking about.

-> First of all, I don't promote MLM (thanks for being misleading once again G7W). I do promote Blogging and Affiliate Marketing. If G7W was just a little informed about affiliation, he would probably know that a LOT of big brands are using this mean to promote their websites and it's a completely legit business model, or maybe you want to question the legitimacy of Amazon.com which built itself thanks to this model. I do also promote "stay at home", because that's actually what I'm doing for a living: working from home.

As a sidenote: G7W, if the whole affiliate marketing is so evil, please be my guest and target Amazon.com with your power-user friends. Once you'll manage to get all links to Amazon blocked from Facebook, MyWot will just get their ass sued thanks to your efforts. But MyWot will eventually "fix" the issue to avoid issues with such a big company.

It's as if you decided to trash the whole automotive industry because your local car reseller screwed you with a bad deal... This would be completely out of scale.

3/ Let's come back to the scorecard about Dukeo.com and check the other comments made by MyWot users who apparently have a problem with my blog... Myxt writes: "This web site promotes multiple "easy money" spammers and scammers and fails to appear legitimate through spammy, useless blog articles."

-> This one is as informed and intelligent as the reply of G7W here putting in the same bag "easy money", "spammers" and "scammers". I never say that making money is "easy" (it's even stated in the terms and conditions of my blog), it's actually a lot of work... Thank you for associating me with Spammers and Scammers... Do you really know what a spammer does? Do you know what a scammed does? Any proof of me being any of these? Any real argument to back this up? No need for proof, it's posted anonymously on MyWot!

5/ Let's move to the comment left by "marinated" which apparently either is a competitor of mine, or just want to get accepted in the "MyWot troll pack", he writes: "This site operators pay spammers good money to litter blogs, forums, and other communities all across the web. The spammers themselves is bad, but these guys ultimately create a demand for spammers thus initiating the entire process. May they one day pay for the countless hours they have strained upon legitimate people online."

-> Seriously? Just wow! That's pure libel. With my blog I don't make that much money, so please explain how I could "pay spammers good money". The guy who posted that can't possible have any clue since I have NEVER done anything like that. This just shows that if you want to get into the club, you try to copy the "big guys", so you just trash other people for the sake of trashing them even if you don't have a single proof to back up your claims.

6/ I have to admit that I may have, from time to time, some people who are buying some advertising space on my site to promote some questionnable products. But are you going to judge my site because of the ads you are being served? If that's the case, maybe you should review all the "full green" ratings of streaming websites such as Channel1 (http://www.mywot.com...ard/1channel.ch) and Megaupload (rip) (http://www.mywot.com.../megaupload.com) because they are serving some scammy advertising pretending that you won a prize or that you can win a green card online, or whatever... And I'm not even talking about sites such as ThePirateBay (http://www.mywot.com...hepiratebay.com) which is even rated yellow for child safety even though a part of the site is about illegal material and kids have some chances of downloading a porno instead of the movie they were looking for. The userbase of MyWot craves illegal stuff such as streaming and they're supposed to be trustworthy? You know what.. It's up to you to decide if I am trustworthy or not, but at least I don't hide my name, I don't hide who I am and I don't hide where I come from. All this info can be found on my blog. When you truly believe in what you are doing, what is the point in hiding behind anonymity? Yet, this is what all users on MyWot are doing, thinking they are some kind of vigilante...

7/ A little sidenote. When I check the comments left on a lot of scorecards, I can see that MyWot really has a problem with the whole advertising thing. There is a tracking script called Prosper202 which is widely used to track visitors and all the websites on which it is installed are voted red for "click tracking". The interesting thing, when you think about it, is that neither Google.com or Adsense.Google.com or Gmail.com is voted red for this reason... Even though you are fully profiled by these services to be served targeted advertising. That's quite interesting, don't you think? This just demonstrates that MyWot users are in no way specialists but just "guys next door" who were given a nice toy and too many responsibilities, they learned to perform a few automated checks on websites and they think they are security experts.

8/ Let's continue with one of my prefered examples that demonstrates how WOT works: Aweber.com (http://www.mywot.com...card/aweber.com). You'll notice on the scorecard that the 4 grades are in the green (which tends to demonstrate that the majority of people voted it as a trusted site). Now, take a look at the comments... Not a single positive comment on the first page! It goes from "Ethical issues" to "Spam" and "Spyware or adware" or "Phishing or other scams". Now, for those of you who don't know, Aweber is a third-party website that allows any business owner to manage his mailing list(s). If we take a closer look at the comment of G7W, we can read: "Also, this service is used by Scamers / Spammers to harvest email address for "Get Rich Quick" schemes and/or lists created for the intent to share and/or sell."

-> First of all, if G7W had a single clue about Aweber, he would know that Aweber does not allow people to use their service for spam. They have safeguards in place such as double opt-in. It means that to get subscribed to a mailing list managed by Aweber, you have to go through 2 steps: 1/ Submit your email address through a form, and 2/ (here is one of the many safeguards) receive an email, and click on a confirmation link inside that email to confirm that you DO want to receive further information from the person owning the mailing list. Now, if you've confirmed your subscription, it's not spam! Moreover, if you don't want to receive information anymore, all emails are including an "unsubscribe" link that will stop all further messages after only 1 click. The last part of G7W's comment tends to demonstrate what could be a political/ideological view: "and/or lists created for the intent to share and/or sell"... If selling is a bad thing in the mind of G7W, I understand why he likes to trash small business' owners through MyWot.

9/ One of the biggest flaws of MyWot is that it relies on opinions of anonymous people. Sorry for being a sceptic, but I tend to believe that there is no intelligence in an anonymous crowd (and I am not the only one, I invite you to Google: "anonymous crowd psychology" and read some of the research articles, it's extremely interesting). An anonymous crowd is generally made of anonymous leaders and anonymous followers, it's not some kind of haven where everyone is equal (it's quite funny actually that the "weight system" which is applied on MyWot votes completely demonstrates this). Instead of relying on the opinions of total strangers, I would advise people to use a combination of 3 things: 1/ A proper combo Antivirus/Firewall, 2/ plugins that rely on software detection, such as Site Advisor (it will protect you from spyware and auto-downloaders), 3/ Your own judgement. If you are not able to judge a website by yourself, you shouldn't be on the internet in the first place. If you don't feel comfortable about a website, trust your own judgement and stay away from this website. As per child safety, leaving your child browsing the internet without supervision, or at least some kind of Parental Control software is foolish and totally unresponsible.

10/ You can see that G7W puts all kinds of stuff in the same bag and judges websites and whole industries with a cookie-cutter attitude and a 6 seconds review per website (talk about in-depth first-hand experience), and it harms small businesses (but he doesn't care because he rates negatively website which have the goal of "selling"). Imagine the kind of influence he can have on the crowd of newbie users on MyWot who want to become as powerful on MyWot as he is... Scary.

11/ Let's move on to another (yes another one..) misleading argument given by G7W: "That's the thing, many people bash WOT saying it blocked them from some site; all they have to do is rate it - WOT doesn't warn you for sites you rate green."

-> This is utterly misleading because of the weight system that is applied to votes! If a random visitor is blocked for a given website that he likes, he can always vote "in the green" for it. However, if someone like g7w votes "in the red" for the same site, it will need tens (if not hundreds or thousands) of casual visitors to counter the 1 single vote of g7w: The system is just biased.

12/ I should thank again the person who initiated this post on the forum and given a possibility to expose MyWot once again. This is typically the kind of post that would get deleted or trolled if it was posted on MyWot forums so it's good to see these questions asked on other websites and forums.

13/ I must add one last thing: since I made this post on my blog to expose Web Of Trust, it got ranked very high in search results for various searches related to MyWot. As a reaction, MyWot started a reputation management campaign by creating profiles on various websites to try to push my article down in the search engine results and bury it. Thankfully, my article is staying strong. If there was any kind of lie in my blog post, don't you think that Web Of Trust would sue me for libel or at least sent me a C&D to get the article down? If they wanted to sue me, they could easily find my real name on my blog as I don't hide behind a pseudo like their army of trolls. But they can't do it because I did my homework and what I say in my blog post is 100% true. (In my research about their system I uncovered some other information that could be critical to them in case of taking me to court, but you'll understand that I keep that in my sleeve for now. Just in case. Because I don't really trust Web Of Trust.)

14/ Let's conclude this very long reply with a real-life example: Imagine you just moved to a new neighborhood. You're at home but you want to go out for a while. On your way back from work a couple hours ago, you noticed a small coffee shop that might be worth a visit. You walk to the place, but just before you reach the door, a man with a mask on his face stops you and yells at you: "don't go to this place, they eat babies for breakfast!" Are you going to blindly follow the advice of this complete stranger (who might just be the owner of the coffee shop next door, or maybe a complete psycho)? Or are you going to visit the coffee shop anyway to make your own opinion?

Even worse if there are 4 of these guys wearing masks. They stand in front of the door and strongly advise you to not visit this coffee shop for whatever reason. The fact that they are 4 gives them more weight, yet they could be hired by the competition or just scare people for fun, or they could be psychos... You can never know. And yet, since they are several, you may be a little afraid and you may think that several people getting to a consensus might know the truth. If you don't go into the coffee shop and make your own opinion, you'll never know!

#33 GT500

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:52 AM

Dukeo, have you tried posting on the Web Of Trust forums asking for a reevaluation of your website?

Also, if they make any suggestions as to things you can fix, then don't you think it is in your best interest to go ahead and fix them?

As I have said already, I have maintained my own website for many years (domain registered 14th of December, 2004) and I have never once had an issue with Web Of Trust, and I have never been in contact with them as a website owner/admin in any way. In my experience, they don't bother legitimate websites or harass website owners/admins.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, and against the worldly governors, the princes of the darkness of this world...


#34 Dukeo

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:59 AM

GT500, I went through the whole reevaluation process and it turned into a troll-fest.

Seriously, what do you expect from a bunch of amateurs self-proclaimed security experts who think they know everything about everything?

This has nothing to do with web security. This is just "opinions" without any need to back up your claims.

At first I followed the recommendations but when they ran out of fuel, it went back to condemning my whole industry simply because Mywot users don't have a clue about it and it's easier to trash everyone than trying to understand. My website was voted red because I disagree with the way MyWot works. And seriously, what do you want to discuss about marketing with people who don't know the difference between MLM, Affiliate Marketing and "get rich quick", and use libel in every single post without backing it up...

After being treated as a spammer, a scammer, a "get rich quick" scammer, "posting useless blog posts", there is nothing positive to get out of it... It's way easier to destroy what other people are trying to build than building something yourself... Haters are gonna hate.

#35 Dukeo

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:00 PM

And when I say "opinions", it's not even about opinions for most of the votes, since, as g7w explained his process, most of it is automated checks.

#36 goldhound

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:35 PM

Wow! :unsure: there must be some good, i never considered it all bad.
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#37 GT500

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 01:35 PM

Could you give me a link to the topic on the Web Of Trust forums where this happened?

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, and against the worldly governors, the princes of the darkness of this world...


#38 wildman424

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:51 PM

looks like I'm late to the party as usual,

I am a WOT contributor, and I call em how I see em at the time the my rating is posted. If I go investigating a site suspected of being a phishing scam and find sutable evidence to support the claim they get the red rating. If go investigating a site and find malicious content that could cause a breach in an unsupecting users security it gets the red. Sites engaged in the use of spam and sites that are engaged in ethically questionable practices/content also recieve a bad rating.

I may use other users comments & ratings as a starting point of an investigation, but I do not rely solely on them as it could be considered hearsay, and it would not nor could it be considered reliable just the same as hearsay doesn't hold up in any court of law.

The purpose of WOT is to gather information on sites particularly sites known to contain threats, scams, or other undesirable content and and provide that information to the public so they can make an informed decision of weather or not is is safe to visit a site, whether or not the content of a site is trustworthy, whether or not the content of a site is of questionable reliability, or it the content of a site would be considered offensive to them. In the end its up to the end user to make an informed decision on whether or not they want to visit a site.

Sites that are actually dangerous ussually don't last long, the community as a whole is rather good at getting sites that are actually dangerous blacklisted or shutdown very quickly.

Could it be comprimised, Uh ... its possable maybe, but it isn't very likely. The chances of all that information being inacurate or falsafied by the majority is very slim to none.

Is it a 100% accrurate, No, people make mistakes and automated test do result in false possitives.

People do make mistakes, myself included. And I invite any site owner whose site I have rated to get in contact with me if they feel that there site was mis-rated, was given a poor rating at the time do to a comprimise beyond there control, or would other wise like to have there site rechecked and I'd be more than happy to check it again and re-rate it. I'm firm but I'm fair. Every one gets a fair evaluation.

contact on WOT
or via this forum's PM system
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#39 BornSlippy

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:36 PM

Maybe I'm not understanding this WOT thing so maybe someone can explain this example.
Two websites, both espousing views which are so diametrically opposed to my own that I disagree with just about every syllable written.
Both are fuelled by hate filled paranoia, half truths and downright lies, yet I can find no valid reason to caution against visiting either.
One is owned and controlled by one of the richest and most powerful media conglomerates in history,
the other isn't. Guess which site gets Green. Is this significant?
hxxp://www.cwfa.org/ http://www.mywot.com...card/cwalac.org
hxxp://www.foxnews.com/ http://www.mywot.com...www.foxnews.com

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#40 Dukeo

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:11 PM

GT500, it's not there anymore. It's been deleted by admins because i got it to rank in first position in search engines for the search term "mywot defamation". (I've been defending myself and my business with the tools I have) For some reason they were not happy with that. ;)




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